Curse

HigherMinion · Aug 18, 2010, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I've noticed only two possible ways you can fail with Spiritway.

1. Spirits run out and sometimes heroes don't recast and you forget to micro them back down.

2.You plant them all in a ball and they get nuked.

...Ok, maybe there are three.

3. Didn't take time to preprot, lure enough, pre-cast spirits.

If all the spirits are up, you take the brunt of the damage with PS/SoA active, you can't fail.

Daesu · Aug 18, 2010, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

It's irrelevant because there is no other area in the game that is even remotely near as challenging as BLA. There's no point comparing the validity of builds in BLA when talking about general pve.

And what is this general pve that people are talking about. Most of these areas can be covered by discordway and many other builds/variants quite easily.

Quote:

Also, i never said that Panic was a bad option, although i would never use shared or SS. Its viable in certain areas and ive used it. What i questioned was your issue with safety with spiritway

Yes in the tougher areas like BLA, there are safer builds than spiritway that can handle AoE attacks and corner casting much better.

I find it quite pointless when someone chooses an easy area and argue that one build is better than the other when both builds can clear the area almost as easily. For many people like myself who have completed all the campaigns years ago, the only areas that still hold some interest are the end game areas.

Many of these areas are still difficult (or impossible) to H/H in. This is where the real challenge is, so don't tell me to go vanquish easy areas that I have already done many times before, and I can easily do them again with or without spiritway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I've noticed only two possible ways you can fail with Spiritway.

1. Spirits run out and sometimes heroes don't recast and you forget to micro them back down.

2.You plant them all in a ball and they get nuked.

...Ok, maybe there are three.

3. Didn't take time to preprot, lure enough, pre-cast spirits.

If all the spirits are up, you take the brunt of the damage with PS/SoA active, you can't fail.

In BLA, you need to be able to kill the mobs before they get to Salma and I noticed that even with high spawning, Razah's communing spirits dont last long with the onslaught of AoE attacks. If he was a human player, he could use summon spirits to get his spirits out of AoE or at least cast his spirits in multiple places instead of a single place. Even if you flag them, they run in and out of AoE because of their limited AI. Sure you can choose to micro Razah and Xandra, and your own character all at the same time but there are better options.

Unfortunately, when his spirits die prematurely, they take such a long time to recharge and the enemies just keep on coming without giving him a break. Otherwise, he seems pretty good with recasting them as long as he can do so. I discovered that replacing him with a mesmer hero is more effective, since mesmers are good in preventing most devasting spells from firing in the first place, so damage mitigation.

Jeydra · Aug 18, 2010, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You should try H/H spiritway in BLA without any cons and you would know what I mean.

People hyped up discordway and now spiritway so much that they think it is invincible in ALL areas in the game. Spiritway has its weakness, as in every build, spirits require line of sight so you can't use corner tricks easily against huge mobs, unlike discordway. Spirit attacks can also be mitigated through blocking and heroes spirits are susceptible to strong AoE attacks without summon spirits. With the long 45s recharge of communing spirits, it is not very effective against stronger mobs.

Sure if you are vanquishing and pulling mobs, you can wait and prep spirits, it becomes easy to use spiritway. But if mobs are charging towards you while you protect, like in BLA, the weaknesses are more apparent.

There are several areas where Discordway will fail but Spiritway succeeds. You ought to know what areas these are: Duncan, Shards, Forgewight, and so on. Furthermore, Spiritway deals more damage than Discordway and so is faster in general.

Sure Spiritway has its weakness, but citing BLA as "proof" of its inferiority is very weak because so far I'm not aware of any build that can do BLA HM without consumables. BLA NM without consumables is another matter. Do you claim that standard Spiritway cannot clear BLA NM without consumables? If you think so, I'll go attempt it.

I've found that the real weakness of Spiritway in BLA is that it doesn't deal enough AoE damage. That's no real "weakness" in most areas of the game because the sheer volume of monsters in BLA are unlike that found anywhere else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It is time to think of how to make use of the new mesmer buffs instead of relying on the old builds for everything. I said that to the old discordway fans when rit was buffed and now I am saying the same thing again to you spiritway fans. Incredible how people fight so hard to protect the old ways and just refuse to adapt everytime another class gets buffed.

This is a strong statement, and one that needs proof backing it up. Can you exhibit any build, with screenshots, that can compare with standard Spiritway? Anyone can make vague statements like "you guys are just refusing to adapt", but if you can't back it up with proof, you can't really expect anyone to believe you.

HigherMinion · Aug 18, 2010, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Actually, if you read point two, you'll see why your spirits are getting ganked by AoE.

Spread_Them_Out. You won't have problems. You also need to use yourself as bait for fishing out the AoE spells. Prot up, run out and "body-pull" the foes. You also have minions to take some aggro, which should never be around your spirits.

Xenomortis · Aug 18, 2010, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Just because for that particular quest, you have to protect an area instead of pulling, that makes it irrelevant?

Battle for Lion's Arch breaks conventions set by the rest of PvE. It's a special case and is therefore, largely irrelevant when talking about general PvE. Similarly, the Norn Fighting Tournament, Augury Rock, Tihark Orchard and Fronis Irontoe's Lair are all irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And what is this general pve that people are talking about. Most of these areas can be covered by discordway and many other builds/variants quite easily.

Missions, Vanquishes and Dungeons. Of course, you know that.
When difficulty is concerned, the only thing really worth mentioning is a handful of dungeons and perhaps the odd bit of a vanquish.
Most of those three are easy. Where things get difficult however, some builds really stand out and dual spirit heroes is one of them, Discord I find, is not.

You've claimed Spiritway has safety issues. When pressed you cited BLA. BLA is a special case area and as such, it's not surprising that standard things fail. Perhaps you would like to press better alternatives for everything else or even how to H/H BLA HM on an Ele.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I find it quite pointless when someone chooses an easy area and argue that one build is better than the other when both builds can clear the area almost as easily. For many people like myself who have completed all the campaigns years ago, the only areas that still hold some interest are the end game areas.

I know dual Spiritway heroes can be used to H/H Duncan HM on an Ele primary.
Is Duncan HM easy? The same applies to all of Slaver's Exile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Many of these areas are still difficult (or impossible) to H/H in. This is where the real challenge is, so don't tell me to go vanquish easy areas that I have already done many times before, and I can easily do them again with or without spiritway.

I know of one area in the game that has not been H/Hed in HM. That area is the one discussed; Battle for Lion's Arch. Everything else has been H/Hed and to my knowledge, has been done so on an Ele primary. I'm also pretty sure all the dungeons have been done by an Ele with dual spirit heroes and it can be done reliably and quickly.
So apart from BLA, where else does Spiritway fail or even struggle?

Daesu · Aug 18, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Missions, Vanquishes and Dungeons. Of course, you know that.
When difficulty is concerned, the only thing really worth mentioning is a handful of dungeons and perhaps the odd bit of a vanquish.
Most of those three are easy. Where things get difficult however, some builds really stand out and dual spirit heroes is one of them, Discord I find, is not.

You've claimed Spiritway has safety issues. When pressed you cited BLA. BLA is a special case area and as such, it's not surprising that standard things fail. Perhaps you would like to press better alternatives for everything else or even how to H/H BLA HM on an Ele.

As you know the general PvE areas can also be cleared by half a dozen builds, besides spiritway. The fact that spiritway can clear HM Duncan is indeed impressive, I'll give you that and I wont consider HM Duncan to be a general PvE area either. It is an end game area.

I agree that BLA is a little different where mobs can enage before you and your heroes are ready. That reveal a weakness for the standard pvx spiritway with a 45s recharge for communing spirits in this kind of setting. The fact that rit heroes tend to clump their spirits into one spot during battle makes it even worse when faced with AoE attacks. In this kind of battle, replacing the communing hero with a mesmer hero worked better for me.

Quote:

I know of one area in the game that has not been H/Hed in HM. That area is the one discussed; Battle for Lion's Arch. Everything else has been H/Hed and to my knowledge, has been done so on an Ele primary. I'm also pretty sure all the dungeons have been done by an Ele with dual spirit heroes and it can be done reliably and quickly.
So apart from BLA, where else does Spiritway fail or even struggle?

Maybe you are right, but I don't recall any heroes build that can complete HM DoA, Urgoz, Deep, UW, and FoW or ToPK.

maxxfury · Aug 18, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Running anything thats "pvx standard" is often not the best choice, especially when you look at disco and spirtway's . They are a baseline for something that works, a general bar to mod and work from, often not whats optimal, and also not always what is even good. ^^

I actually took soul twisitng on my communing rit instead of sogm, with offensive and defensive spirits, and had ZERO problems with raz not having his spirits up... and he only needed a little micro now and then to not be too retarded..

Com Rit
ST/boon of creation/union/displacement/shelter/pain/disenchantment/anguish

Channeling/resto rit
sos/bloodsong/a-rage/spirit siphon/painfulbond/mend body and soul/spirit light/protective was kaolai

aotl bomber
AOTL/bone minions minions/deathnova/masochism/ps/aegis/res chant/*dont recall off top of my head

*

Alesia & claude for giggles..

This was a much more robust and quicker killing setup than disco... disco didnt have the same punch and oomph for bla..even with disco spike macro'd.. even tho i could probably have optimized it better..this setup took me to the last 2 waves of hm also, but i wiped and didnt bring dp removals or cons

Quote:

Maybe you are right, but I don't recall any heroes build that can complete HM DoA, Urgoz, Deep, UW, and FoW or ToPK.

When your unable to actually take hanchies as well, that puts the area into a different category, as you cant actually take h&h, you have to sub areas with just heroes..or take multiple players + their heroes (even if they leave and loan you heroes, your still having to sub the area)

Xenomortis · Aug 18, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I'll give you that and I wont consider HM Duncan to be a general PvE area either. It is an end game area.

Why not? Duncan HM and the rest of dungeons (bar Fronis) all fit the general PvE formula. Conventions are not broken. You can bring henchmen, mob sizes are not immense, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Maybe you are right, but I don't recall any heroes build that can complete HM DoA, Urgoz, Deep, UW, and FoW or ToPK.

This thread is concerned with H/Hing on an Ele Primary. You can only bring henchmen into one of them (ToPK) and therefore, the rest are not relevant.
I'm pretty sure ToPK can be H/Hed in HM too. Perhaps it falls outside of "general PvE", but it doesn't break convention (bar not being allowed to wipe).

Daesu · Aug 18, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Why not? Duncan HM and the rest of dungeons (bar Fronis) all fit the general PvE formula. Conventions are not broken. You can bring henchmen, mob sizes are not immense, etc.

Why not? Because the enemies in there and their skills are not typical of most areas and it is harder than most pve areas. We can, of course, argue all day about what constitutes typical "general" pve but that would be a waste of time.

Quote:

This thread is concerned with H/Hing on an Ele Primary. You can only bring henchmen into one of them (ToPK) and therefore, the rest are not relevant.
I'm pretty sure ToPK can be H/Hed in HM too. Perhaps it falls outside of "general PvE", but it doesn't break convention (bar not being allowed to wipe).

Even if you can't bring henchies, one can still devise a 6-heroes build for them (except for Urgoz/Deep where you need a 9-heroes build).

As for spiritway, I still think that a mesmer hero is a better alternative to the communing rit especially when fighting caster mobs.

Life Bringing · Aug 18, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

With the exception of uw, all of those can be h/hed. ToPK can even be done with just you+3 heroes if you have the patience, while the others require a partner so you can have a full team.

I cannot believe that you are so determined to keep up this bullshit. Obviously BLA is nothing like the rest of the game and I don't understand how you can even think of arguing otherwise.

Sure, BLA reveals a weakness as you say, but who really gives a shit? It's a weakness that is not played upon in any other part of the game. Even other areas where you have to defend an area are easily managable with spiritway because the mobs are no where near the same magnitude of BLA

Daesu · Aug 18, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I cannot believe that you are so determined to keep up this bullshit. Obviously BLA is nothing like the rest of the game and I don't understand how you can even think of arguing otherwise.

Sure, BLA reveals a weakness as you say, but who really gives a shit? It's a weakness that is not played upon in any other part of the game. Even other areas where you have to defend an area are easily managable with spiritway because the mobs are no where near the same magnitude of BLA

I don't know why people have to be so defensive whenever someone points out a flaw in their favorite build, it is not like you invented it or something. Furthermore, every build have flaws so why are you so upset about it? Sure, pvx Spiritway is still feasible, but that doesn't mean it can never be improved upon.

That said, I have not heard of a successful 6 heroes build for DoA HM yet.

Jeydra · Aug 19, 2010, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I don't know why people have to be so defensive whenever someone points out a flaw in their favorite build, it is not like you invented it or something. Furthermore, every build have flaws so why are you so upset about it? Sure, pvx Spiritway is still feasible, but that doesn't mean it can never be improved upon.

That said, I have not heard of a successful 6 heroes build for DoA HM yet.

Irrelevant. If you have an improvement, show it. Give the bars, the spec, the equipment, any special tactics, an area to try it on, etc. I promise you that I'll try it personally. If you don't have an improvement, don't criticize spiritway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I agree that BLA is a little different where mobs can enage before you and your heroes are ready. That reveal a weakness for the standard pvx spiritway with a 45s recharge for communing spirits in this kind of setting. The fact that rit heroes tend to clump their spirits into one spot during battle makes it even worse when faced with AoE attacks. In this kind of battle, replacing the communing hero with a mesmer hero worked better for me.

BLA monsters don't attack before you're ready. They attack long after you have had time to set up all your defenses. They just come in overwhelmingly large numbers that spiritway cannot kill before they kill spiritway.

If you say replacing the Communing hero with a Mesmer hero worked better for you, well and good - but you've yet to back up the statement with proof. Another implication would be that standard spiritway cannot do BLA. Right now I'm inclined to conclude that it indeed cannot do BLA HM, but I've not attempted it with BLA NM, so that's something to find out. Do you claim that standard spiritway cannot do BLA NM? Or that standard spiritway is somehow more fragile / slower than that involving a Mesmer hero when doing BLA NM?

Say something concrete, because without it it's just theory.

PS: Spiritway makes no claim to be the best build when you 1) cannot bring in henchmen and 2) have access to another 3 heroes + 1 player. Again, using UW / FoW / Urgoz / Deep / DoA as "proof" that spiritway can be improved is very weak - unless you can show a H/H build that can do all those areas. If you know of one, post it.
PPS: Spirits getting killed by AoE is a definite problem with spiritway. You can mitigate it by spreading out before engaging, but if the fight lasts very long after that they'll get killed quite a bit unless you have superb micro. I can also see the argument against SoGM, although I haven't tried the same builds with ST - SoGM after all adds to damage while ST does not, and running ST means you can't spec into Channeling or whatever for more Splinter Weapons / Spirit Siphon.

Chthon · Aug 19, 2010, 02:00 AM // 02:00

1. This thread is now waaaaay off topic.

2. BLA is not representative of PvE. The sheer volume of foes, the timing of the waves, and the specific terrain advantages built into the quest are all quite atypical. (Case in point: I beat BLA HM (4 players+2heroes, so not H+H) on my ranger. Rangers stink for general PvE, and I'll be the first to tell you that, but the special features of BLA make them excel there.) BLA is, however, still part of PvE, and a significant one because of the challenge it poses in HM. So, to say that such-and-such a build is excellent or poor for BLA means exactly that -- the build is excellent or poor for BLA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Maybe you are right, but I don't recall any heroes build that can complete HM DoA, Urgoz, Deep, UW, and FoW or ToPK.

I can complete ToPK HM with H+H. The other areas cannot be H+H'ed because there are no henchmen available. If you allow for 2+6 (or 3+9) teams in those areas, FoW HM is a joke; Deep and Urgoz should be doable, and I believe they've been reported as done; DoA is probably doable, though with different builds for each area; and UW is only impossible because of shortcomings with the hero AI -- it cannot split intelligently and hasn't the faintest clue what to do at Dhuum.

Daesu · Aug 19, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Irrelevant. If you have an improvement, show it. Give the bars, the spec, the equipment, any special tactics, an area to try it on, etc. I promise you that I'll try it personally. If you don't have an improvement, don't criticize spiritway.

There are several mesmer bars that worked well for me. There is already a Panic hero mesmer bar that other people have tried and claimed to work well.

Quote:

BLA monsters don't attack before you're ready. They attack long after you have had time to set up all your defenses. They just come in overwhelmingly large numbers that spiritway cannot kill before they kill spiritway.

If you say replacing the Communing hero with a Mesmer hero worked better for you, well and good - but you've yet to back up the statement with proof. Another implication would be that standard spiritway cannot do BLA. Right now I'm inclined to conclude that it indeed cannot do BLA HM, but I've not attempted it with BLA NM, so that's something to find out. Do you claim that standard spiritway cannot do BLA NM? Or that standard spiritway is somehow more fragile / slower than that involving a Mesmer hero when doing BLA NM?

I have already made myself very clear above why standard spiritway is lacking in BLA and why a mesmer would help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Deep and Urgoz should be doable, and I believe they've been reported as done; and UW is only impossible because of shortcomings with the hero AI -- it cannot split intelligently and hasn't the faintest clue what to do at Dhuum.

Maybe I just cant find the links because I have only found reported failed attempts.

Quote:

DoA is probably doable, though with different builds for each area;

I have found 6-heroes build for NM DoA but not for HM DoA. It would be great if someone can post a compilation of these end game areas with their builds.

Jeydra · Aug 19, 2010, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There are several mesmer bars that worked well for me. There is already a Panic hero mesmer bar that other people have tried and claimed to work well.

Post the bar, with spec / equipment / other heroes + henchmen to use with it and area to use it in.

PS: Using a Mesmer didn't help me with BLA HM, and you still haven't made any assertions about how standard spiritway would fare in BLA NM (which is what I assume you're in, since so far I'm not aware of any H/H build that clears BLA HM).

Life Bringing · Aug 19, 2010, 02:23 AM // 02:23

I have found a 6 hero build for doa HM that works with cons. With competent players and careful pulling, it could probably be done without them albeit slowly.

kanuks · Aug 20, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

With the exception of uw, all of those can be h/hed. ToPK can even be done with just you+3 heroes if you have the patience, while the others require a partner so you can have a full team.

I cannot believe that you are so determined to keep up this bullshit. Obviously BLA is nothing like the rest of the game and I don't understand how you can even think of arguing otherwise.

Sure, BLA reveals a weakness as you say, but who really gives a shit? It's a weakness that is not played upon in any other part of the game. Even other areas where you have to defend an area are easily managable with spiritway because the mobs are no where near the same magnitude of BLA

H/H means One human + heroes + henchies. 2 humans isn't considered H/H.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I don't know why people have to be so defensive whenever someone points out a flaw in their favorite build, it is not like you invented it or something. Furthermore, every build have flaws so why are you so upset about it? Sure, pvx Spiritway is still feasible, but that doesn't mean it can never be improved upon.

That said, I have not heard of a successful 6 heroes build for DoA HM yet.

I know for a fact that 6 heroes + 2 humans can complete the Veil in HM (did it once with a buddy). As for the other doa areas im pretty sure it's doable but probably not with a melee class (im a warrior) because some of the env. effects are just too bad for physical players cough 50% chance to miss cough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. This thread is now waaaaay off topic.

2. BLA is not representative of PvE. The sheer volume of foes, the timing of the waves, and the specific terrain advantages built into the quest are all quite atypical. (Case in point: I beat BLA HM (4 players+2heroes, so not H+H) on my ranger. Rangers stink for general PvE, and I'll be the first to tell you that, but the special features of BLA make them excel there.) BLA is, however, still part of PvE, and a significant one because of the challenge it poses in HM. So, to say that such-and-such a build is excellent or poor for BLA means exactly that -- the build is excellent or poor for BLA.

I can complete ToPK HM with H+H. The other areas cannot be H+H'ed because there are no henchmen available. If you allow for 2+6 (or 3+9) teams in those areas, FoW HM is a joke; Deep and Urgoz should be doable, and I believe they've been reported as done; DoA is probably doable, though with different builds for each area; and UW is only impossible because of shortcomings with the hero AI -- it cannot split intelligently and hasn't the faintest clue what to do at Dhuum.

3 man 9 heroes urgoz HM is pretty easy, i've done it plenty of times, including some times where one of the player disc (thank god heroes acts as henchies). One of the time the player that brought the eoe hero disced and we still finished without much troubles (needed to flag his 3 "henchies" to the eoe spot, which was a pain).

Hmmm i realised i just posted 3 times in a row.

Regarding BLA, i did it nm with h/h with an sos hero, aotl hero and panic hero, me being an 100b warrior. Or maybe i used 2 spirit spammers + panic i'm not sure. I got a SS so i could get the answer when i get home. At first i tried with 2 spirit spammers + aotl but for me panic worked better.

Edit : thanks to the mod who merged my 3 posts

Da Rk Bl Ad E · Aug 21, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Just tried these out for a few HM Cantha missions after not playing my Ele in a long time, and I gotta say, these are awesome.

timbo_3101 · Aug 24, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Tried your spiritway on Duncan HM with my R/A spammer, and although it was only my second time killing him on solo H/H (but am quite familiar with dungeon having defeated him up to ten times in cooperative play), I can make some comparisons. Under similar conditions to my discordway attempt, I used some DP removal at the beginning, otherwise no buffing was required. Spiritway tactics were less stressful and more controlled. Comparison of times was 1:26h (spiritway) versus approximately 2:30h (modified discordway), but if done efficiently by experienced farmers without breaks or waiting for minion degeneration then perhaps this can be reduced towards 1:00h or 1:15h, or faster yet. I think the time advantage relates to safety and less wipes (for example two wipes versus five wipes, respectively).

Hopefully the following picture appears:

I have trialled spiritway for perhaps 100-200h in endgame PvE, and feel comfortable that the technique is safer overall although not necessarily faster than discordway in corpse-rich areas.

Thanks again Jeydra for this comprehensive posting, and I hope my observations are of use to fellow GW players!

Jeydra · Aug 26, 2010, 11:13 AM // 11:13

I appreciate your trying out spiritway so much, but there's one problem - Duncan HM is very doable within 40 minutes at most. In fact I think my times are closer to 30 minutes, although I don't have screenshots. 90 minutes and (gasp) 150 minutes are just way too long. Wipes shouldn't happen. If I wipe in the dungeon, it's generally because of the spirits left behind aggro'ing patrolling mobs, which is something that can be avoided. Having to use DP removal isn't encouraging either.

This is the last screenshot I uploaded of myself doing Duncan: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/1...t10431929.html. There's no time in the screenshot however, but it wasn't a tough run. I've found since then that Duncan IS doable without Swap, although I don't know which is faster, with or without it.

I'm pretty confident spiritway is faster and safer, unless you're in an excessively corpse-heavy area where you can run 2 MMs and still get away with it.